Thursday, December 10, 2020

Martin Hengel & The Gospel Titles

 “Almost all books which were duplicated by copying, disseminated in the book trade and collected in libraries, also had a title which had similarly been structured by the model of the inclusion of the book…works without the titles easily got double or multiple titles when names were given to them in different libraries… this is also evident from individual pseudepigrapha of the old and New Testament‘s, for example... The strange uniformity and early attestation of the titles of the Gospels excludes the possibility that for a long time they had been circulating anonymously in the communities...Works without titles no longer had a chance of establishing themselves in the mainstream church. At best they reached esoteric circles as in the case of the Nag Hammadi texts. Where the name of the author was removed, as in the case of Hebrews and the letter to Diognetus, at least the name of those to whom it was addressed (whether fictitious or authentic) was preserved. By their striking consistency in the manuscript tradition for Matthew to the book of revelation, in particular the writings which later formed the “New Testament” generally show that from the beginning, i.e. from the time they were produced or disseminated and circulated, they were associated with their original titles. In practice, therefore, these could no longer be changed. The few exceptions prove the rule. In contrast to this, both the titles and the textual traditions of the “apocryphal“ writings of the second century are often unstable. Essentially greater arbitrariness is predominate here. If the titles of the Gospels, the letters of the apocalypses have been changed or expanded, this would have left a record in the textual tradition, which is uniquely well tested for antiquity…Where there were uncertainties, for example with the letter to the Ephesians, discrepancies in the textual attestation indicate the fact. most of the inspired “holy Scriptures“ of the prophets of the Old Testament already bore the names of their authors from Moses to Malachi and were sometimes also coded with these names. In the New Testament, Moses is mentioned 79 times, Isaiah 22 times Jeremiah three times; Daniel once; Hosea once; Amos three times; Joel once; psalms (of David) or David as Psalmist around 10 times.” Hengel (2000:48, 54, 105, 125n. 502)


References

Martin Hengel, The Four Gospels And The One Gospel of Jesus Christ. Trinity Press International 2000.

Sunday, December 6, 2020

Proselytize or Apostatize Resurrection Debate Review

My friend Caleb Jackson and Aaron Aquinas did a debate on the resurrection against village atheists David Johnson & Matthew Taylor. Caleb has a good, accessible book defending the resurrection you can purchase here. 

Debate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KllcQ77QgE&t=2170s

1: Caleb defends an NT Wright style of argumentation which I am sympathetic to. I wish he had time to defend the Gospels, but time constraints made that impossible. He gave a good, albeit brief over view of the concept of resurrection and afterlife in Antiquity. 

2: He (Caleb) mentioned independent traditions in the empty tomb narratives. To bolster his case here, I'll quote some material from Jake O'Connell (2016:130f). "Matthew included the information about the guards at the tomb (28:8-10). Luke changes the list of women at the tomb even though he would have no conceivable reason to do this and he also includes the fact that Peter ran to the tomb (24:12), another event not found in Mark. John has Peter and the beloved disciple running to the tomb (20:4) and an appearance to Mary Magdalene by the tomb (20:11-18), both events which are not found in Mark. Thus, since the Gospel writers had independent information about the empty tomb, they do not all drive their account from Mark, and so we have four independent sources."

3: Caleb rightly points out that they would have had the language to describe a mere ascension or exaltation into heaven, drawing on Acts 12.

4: Caleb points out David Johnson can't make the elementary distinction between a resurrection and resuscitation. If Johnson bothered to do the bare minimum amount of research, he'd see there isn't a dearth of material on just this subject. Take Wright's The Resurrection of the Son of God (2003).

5: Aaron is sharp, but spends too much time getting unnecessary preliminaries out of the way. A lot of those are already known and agreed on

6: Johnson brings up the virgin birth for some odd reason. Every non Christian scholar denies the virgin birth, but still believe quite a number of episodes in the Gospels are historical. Nothing but weasel words.

7: Johnson channels Chris Hallquist in bringing up alien abductions. He neglected to mention old hag syndrome as an explanation.

a) Let's assume alien abductions happen. That does nothing with the resurrection evidence. One giant red herring.

8:He says we have more evidence for alien abductions than the resurrection, but never puts his money where his mouth is. His assertions are only as good as their supporting arguments.

9: He brings up reputational martyrdom for aliens, but has no clue how this line of argument works. The whole point is that the apostles sincerely believed what they saw and preached.

10: He says "We most certainly have evidence for the resurrection, but it pales in comparison to the evidence for alien abductions". He has yet to back this up in anyway. He cites 0 sources.

11: He brings up Trump and his supporters saying that he actually won. Well, maybe because there is evidence of voter fraud, or, at the very least, they suggest there is evidence of voter fraud?

(I will not give my opinions on that matter here.) 

12: You don't get to compare 1c Christians with 21c Christians. This is laughable at best. To boot, there are non-Christian Trump supporters. Ironically, it is David Johnson who can not parse the facts. 

13: Taylor brings up the fact that his grandfather had lied to him about his birth. Notice, he fact checked him, in the same way the early Christians could have verified the claims going around. 

a) Not all testimony is the same, we must take it on a case by case basis. 

14: Taylor needs to give some examples of ancient historians making things up. No doubt they did, but examples would be useful, so that we could compare them with the Gospels. 

15: Sure, we should put the Gospels up to the test! Happy to oblige.

16: He brings up the ending of Mark. Does he not realize that works against him? We are able to distinguish between out right fabrications and historical memory. 

17: He brings up progressions of Jesus in each Gospel account. This is beyond an exercise in misdirection. Matthew and Luke include a virgin birth, whereas the earliest and latest Gospel do not. Does John contain exorcisms? Compare the number of miracle accounts in the Gospels. See if John has the most in comparison with the earlier accounts. 

18: Mark doesn't narrate the resurrection, but it is anticipated (8:31; 9:9, 31; 10:32-34; 14:28).

19: The Gospels are remarkably accurate when compared to non-biblical sources. There are standard books and commentaries on this, which Taylor & Johnson obviously haven't bothered to consult. They want their opposition to do all the leg work. 



Saturday, November 28, 2020

The Burial of Jesus Part 1

 Three stages in the argument for and against the burial of Jesus: 


  1. The probability relative to our background knowledge. The prior probability. This includes things like the frequency of burial for crucifixion victims, the practices of the Romans, Pilate’s character, Old Testament precedent, Acts, 1 Corinthians 15 creed etc. 

  2. Direct evidence for the hypothesis (i.e. any data that is less surprising on B than on ~B). This includes things like the Gospels’ testimony, the potential location of the tomb, 1 Corinthians 15 creed, evidence for the empty tomb, etc.  

  3. Direct evidence against the hypothesis (i.e. any data that is more surprising on B than on ~B). This usually includes the discrepancies in the Gospels, the lack of the tomb, Paul’s silence, parallels in other religions, the non-historicity of Joseph, etc. 

Wednesday, November 25, 2020

Ehrman vs. McGrew: Round 1 Review

 I was recently re-watching Tim McGrew's debate with Bart Ehrman on Unbelievable? with Justin Brierley. I wasn't planning on blogging today, but when I heard Ehrman's misleading arguments, I had to write down some replies. 

(You can listen to it here)

1: Ehrman claims the first mention of Gospel authorship is by Irenaeus c. 180. This is such a simplistic reading, & is only true of Luke. Here is a list of when, and who, mention the Gospels by name: 

Mark- Papias (100), Justin Martyr (155), Irenaeus (175), Clement of Alexandria (195), Muratorian Fragment (late second century) Matthew- Papias (100), Gospel of Thomas 13 (140-180), Apollinaris (175), Irenaeus (175), Clement of Alexandria (195), Muratorian Fragment (late second century) John- Papias (100), Ptolemy (150-175), Heracleon (150-175), Acts of John (150-200), Irenaeus (175), Hegesippus (175), Theophilus of Antioch (180), Polycrates (190), Clement of Alexandria (195), Muratorian Fragment (late second century), Act of Peter and the Twelve (200)

(I am thankful to my friend Chris for the above) 

2: Ehrman claims Justin Martyr doesn't quote John. This is questionable. He neglects to mention C.E. Hill's study on the topic, which you can read here. To my knowledge, Hill isn't some fringe scholar, he is mainstream. I wonder why Ehrman doesn't mention this? Maybe because he teaches at a seminary?

3: Ehrman goes on to say that the Gospels are quoted anonymously by all of our earliest writings. Dr. McGrew goes on to point out (rightly) that the same is done with Paul's letters. But, lets crank up McGrew's argument up a notch. Notice those same sources Ehrman goes to, do the same exact type of citation with the Old Testament! Some examples include: 

1 Clement 4:1- "For so it is writtenAnd it came to pass after certain days that
Cain brought of the fruits of the earth a sacrifice unto God, and
Abel he also brought of the firstlings of the sheep and of their
fatness." (Italics mine)

1 Clement 4:6- "And Cain said unto Abel his brother, Let us go over unto the plain.
And it came to pass, while they Were in the plain, that Cain rose up
against Abel his brother and slew him."
(Italics mine)

1 Clement 8:4-5- "and He added also a merciful judgment: Repent ye, O house of
Israel, of your iniquity; say unto the sons of My people, Though
your sins reach from the earth even unto the heaven, and though
they be redder than scarlet and blacker than sackcloth, and ye turn
unto Me with your whole heart and say Father, I will give ear unto
you as unto a holy people. 
And in another place He saith on this wise, Wash, be ye clean. Put away your iniquities from your souls out of My sight. Cease from your iniquities; learn to do good; seek out judgment; defend him that is wronged: give judgment for the orphan, and execute righteousness for the widow; and come and let us reason together, saith He; and though your sins be as crimson, I will make them white as snow; and though they be as scarlet, I will make them white as wool. And if ye be willing and will hearken unto Me, ye shall eat the good things of the earth; but if ye be not willing, neither hearken unto Me, a sword shall devour you; for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken these things." (Italics original)

Ehrman is simply misleading the audience here. You can look at the rest of the 1st century corpus here

4: Ehrman claims McGrew is appealing to authority when bringing up Martin Hengel. However, some how, Ehrman fails to realize that all McGrew is doing here is stating where he originally got the argument from. 

5: Ehrman simply resorts to weasel words when pressed on the Gospels being formally anonymous. He was very clearly using it as an argument against traditional authorship. However, I will make a few points.

a) No doubt some Greco-Roman (GR) historians/biographers identify themselves in the text, but the Gospels aren't modeled on these texts. They imitate the Old Testament history books in this regard (though not only in this way.)

b) The Old Testament history books are also formally anonymous!

c) With respect to a), lets assume the Gospel authors are trying to do the exact same thing as the elite GR historian, Xenophon does writes about himself in 3rd person, even though he is a direct eyewitness! 

Xenophon, Anabasis 3.1- “There was in the army a certain Xenophon, an Athenian, who accompanied the army neither as a general nor as a captain nor as a private soldier; but Proxenos, an old acquaintance, had sent for him.” 

Simon Gathercole, in his 2018 paper The Alleged Anonymity Of The Canonical Gospels (p. 11 fn. 37 & 38) cites 4 Roman historians, Sallust, Livy, Tacitus & Florus. According to Gathercole, none of them identify themselves in their texts. 

5: Ehrman claims that McGrew is simply assuming the Christian tradition is correct. Well, prof. McGrew, looks like all those Friday nights you spent in the library as a teenager were just a waste! Pack it up!

On a serious note, secularism isn't objectivity. If anything, he is more biased in his research, given he is on record as saying a miracle is the least probable explanation, he needs to throw out quite a number of events from antiquity!

6: Ehrman claims that the early Christians had strong theological reasons for attributing the Gospels to their respective author, but what is the theological reason for naming Mark and Luke the authors of their respective Gospels? This alone cuts against Ehrman's assertion. 

7: McGrew calls out Ehrman's bluff on his repetitious appeal to 'critical scholars'. On a side note, does Ehrman not count the likes of Bauckham, Hengel, Keener, Gathercole, et al as serious scholars? Like McGrew said "...critical scholars as in the ones that agree with you?"

8: Ehrman acts as if McGrew does not know anything about NT scholarship.

a) McGrew has access to the same books & articles Ehrman does. 

b) McGrew is associated with several erudite scholars that are in the apologetics field as well. 

9: Ehrman rambles about harmonization, yet never provides an argument against its legitimacy. 

The rest of the debate goes on to issues of alleged contradictions in the narratives, but that is old fare, and Ehrman's examples have been addressed numerous times. Two recent posts by Jonathan McLatchie come to mind, here & here.

Friday, November 20, 2020

Thread On The Flood Narrative

 Here’s a good thread taking on source critical approaches to the flood story in Genesis 6-8:

https://twitter.com/jamesbejon/status/1329258412941697025?s=21

Monday, November 16, 2020

Ferguson Fumbles

 When I initially encountered this article by Matthew Ferguson, I was not blogging. Now that I am, I would like to analyze it here. Ferguson was the man to beat, and in some ways, still is, because his style of argumentation is still being used. I have skipped over some parts, as they do not weaken my argument. 

He writes: Ancient historical prose has a very distinct style, in which the historian often discusses the methodology of his research, the sources he consulted, the differences between multiple traditions about a person or event, and his judgment as an inquirer into past affairs. 

Naturally, I think the gospel authors are on different historical realms than the famous Greco-Roman (GR) historians. Ancient historians write for fame and to impress their peers, whereas the authors of the gospels are writing for their communities who are already familiar with the story of Jesus.

Continuing: As someone who studies ancient historical writing in the original Greek and Latin languages, it is clear to me that the Gospels are not historical writing. These texts instead read like ancient novelistic literature

1: I agree with Ferguson in some respect here. However, some clarifications are in order. I don't assume that the gospels are modeled on GR histories, they are modeled on the OT history books as well. They even mix the genre in some respects.

2: I believe the gospel genre is just that--gospel. Not ancient novel. 

In all but Luke, we do not hear anything about the written sources that the authors consulted, and even the author of Luke does not name them, explain their contents, or discuss how they are relevant as sources. 

Given Matthew, John, and partially, Mark, are eyewitnesses, they are not going to show the type of research you see in the works of Plutarch, Polybius or Thucydides. Again, given they are written for communities who are already familiar with the Jesus tradition, what is the need for them to cite their sources? Even if they did cite sources, they would be insignificant nobodies. 

Ancient historical works at their beginning (or somewhere else within the body of the narrative) are often prefaced with statements from the author about the period they will be investigating

But again, the gospel authors were present, as well as a large majority of their communities! As John Chrysostom noted long ago: 

“...they were writing to people, who were present, and it had been superfluous to show themselves when they were present. But this man (i.e. Paul) sent his writings from afar and in the form of a letter, for which cause also the addition of the name was necessary.” Homily 1.1 on Romans https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/210201.htm

Consider the very sparse information that the author of Luke (1.1) provides about his written sources (none of whom are identified in any capacity

1: The "autopai" in v.2 isn't touched by Ferguson. Such a narrow and simplistic handling of the preface.

2: In Acts, Luke has a wide range of informants he is with quite frequently.

Census of Quirinius (6 CE)

I will just cite Glenn Miller's work on this. He has given this topic more than anyone. I invite readers to read all his posts on this issue: http://search.freefind.com/find.html?si=64437574&pid=r&n=0&_charset_=UTF-8&bcd=%C3%B7&query=Census

Notice in the two examples above how both Dionysius and Suetonius have active roles in the narrative, as historians who are interjecting their own voice, in order to discuss their sources and relation to events. We learn details of how Dionysius traveled to Rome and learned Latin, and how Suetonius was acquainted with Augustus' own letters. The Gospel authors are silent about their identities and give context about their relation neither to their sources nor to the events they contain. The Gospel narratives instead read like novelistic literature, told from a camera-like perspective, which omnisciently follows around the characters with minimal methodological analysis. This third-person style of narration further casts doubt on whether the Gospels' authors are relating eyewitness experiences.

Once more, the gospels are imitating the OT history books in this regard. As Armin Baum observes: 

"In contrast to the works of Greco-Roman historiography the Old Testament historical books are anonymous without exception. The author’s name is never mentioned. Even the historical source texts to which the Old Testament narrators refer remain anonymous...The historical books of the Hebrew Bible are not named after their authors but after their introductory words (“In the beginning” etc. in the Pentateuch), after their content (Chronicles) or after their main characters: Joshua, Judges, etc. Later narrative works like Tobit, Judith or the Books of the Maccabees and other writings like the anonymous Vitae Prophetarum or Joseph and Aseneth have also been named after their main characters." Baum, A., 2008. The Anonymity of the New Testament History Books: A Stylistic Device in the Context of Greco-Roman and Ancient Near Eastern Literature. Novum Testamentum, 50(2), pp.120-142.

This refutes his simplistic understanding in §3. 

Given what I have said above, we do not need to address his §4

 The Gospels are not even written in the same Aramaic that Jesus spoke. We have no such honesty and sign posts in the Gospels. The Gospels are not even written in the same Aramaic that Jesus spoke.

1: Palestine was at least Bilingual, at best even multilingual. Where is the citation of Hughson Ong's The Multilingual Jesus and the Sociolinguistic World of the New Testament? 

The Life of Aesop and the Gospels

1: The fictitious lives involve characters from the distant past, whereas the gospels give us a recent figure.

2: The Lives of Aesop are more than likely the product of at least a half a millennium of oral tradition.

3: Why would a fictional work get so many little incidental details right? Compare the 4 gospels we have with the later apocryphal gospels. Small villages include: Aenon, Cana, Ephraim, Salim and Sychar are all mentioned in the canonical gospels.

Matthew uses the word sea 16 times. 4 times it does not refer to anything in particular, but the other 12 times it has some reference to the Sea of Galilee. Mark uses sea 19 times. Twice it refers to no sea in particular (9:42; 11:23). The first occurrence in Mark is expressly the Sea of Galilee (1:16). Luke is different. It uses the word see only three times and it never refers to a particular body of water. Also, If traditional authorship is true, Luke came from Antioch on the Orontes, not far from the Mediterranean, he certainly would not have thought of the tiny sea of Galilee as the sea. He just calls it “the lake“ (5:1; 8:22, 23, 33). John, who is traditionally held to be a Galilean fisherman, uses the word Sea 9 times. Two scenes by the sea of Galilee in chapters 6 and 21. The first occurrence is the most specified “ The sea of Galilee, which is the sea of Tiberias” where the sea is also named after Tiberias, A major town on the shore (John 6:1). Subsequent references in the same chapter or just to “the sea” (6:16, 17, 18, 19, 22, 25). John also tells us of the seasonal stream, the Kidron, near Jerusalem, and of two pools in Jerusalem, one of which he correctly described as having five colonnades. 


Now, contrast this with the apocryphal gospels the Gospel of Thomas mentions Judaea once, names and no other locations. the Gospel of Judas names no locations, the Gospel of Phillip names Jerusalem 4 times, Nazara once and the Jordan once, however, Jerusalem was the religious capital, no special knowledge required to know it. The Jordan was the main river and Nazareth became famous because of Jesus. For more on this, see Peter J Williams, Can We Trust the Gospels?



Writing for entertainment purposes would hardly talk about such minute details and instead, focus on the larger cosmopolitan.

4: There is also several degrees of moral ugliness in the gospels, hardly fanciful.

The authors of Matthew and Luke may have had the diligence to copy certain sayings from an earlier Q source—a hypothetical collection of sayings reconstructed by modern scholars

 1: Q isn't a given. 

2: The argument from undesigned coincidences shows the gospels have multiple sources for the same events they narrate. 

Simply because ancient historical authors conducted more rigorous research does not entail that they were skeptical of the supernatural. Unbelievable stories still crop up in the writings of Greek and Latin historians

Unbelievable for Ferguson's naturalism. 

The Gospels, in contrast, simply narrate unbelievable claim after unbelievable claim about a man who can feed whole crowds with one tuna sandwich, cause dead saints to rise from their graves, himself resurrect from the dead

Except we have good evidence that miracles happen. I compiled a small reading list on that topic here Ferguson's hostility to the truth of these accounts is rooted in his commitment to naturalism. 

 and then fly into space in broad daylight.

That is simplistic understanding of the ascension narratives

1: Jesus was taken into heaven, not outer space. In Christian theology, there is a distinction.

2: The Shekinah glory took Jesus up after levitating up a certain distance, this isn't Ferguson's fanciful "flying into space."

 the frequency of these unbelievable stories casts doubt on even the mundane details in the narrative.

A lot of times, we are justified in believing events took place based on the sheer amount of testimony we have. 

Another thing that should be noted is that, while ancient historians occasionally report miracles, they often use specific grammatical constructions that distance themselves from affirming the stories and make clear that they are only reporting claims. The historian Titus Livy, for example, in reporting some of the miracle stories of regal Rome, frequently uses terms like ut dicitur ("as it is said") or ferunt ("they claim") to specify that he is not endorsing these claims, but only recording that they were made. One such example is when Livy (1.39) discusses the tale of how the king Servius Tullius' head, when he was a child, caught on fire while he was sleeping, but did not harm him, as it was a sign that he would be a future king. Livy's careful use of the verb ferunt ("they claim") indicates that he is distancing himself from gullibly believing in this fable. The Gospels, in contrast, just throw out miracle after miracle, asking us to believe every single one of them, in a manner that presumes far less critical thinking on the part of the reader.

1: The gospels writers witnessed their miracles, and report them, just like those who have experienced miracles first hand would report it today. 

2: Is Livy writing about an event he or others close to him experienced, like the gospels are?

And yet in the Gospels, earth-shaking events take place that then receive no follow-up and strangely disappear once they have played their symbolic role in the narrative. Take the Gospel of Matthew, for example. While Jesus is being crucified, the sky grows dark for three hours at midday (27:45). Next, Jesus' death (27:51-53) causes an earthquake that rips the curtain in the Jewish Temple in twain. The earthquake likewise opens the tombs of the saints, from which dead people resurrect and then appear throughout Jerusalem. This is an extraordinary event, indeed, and yet there is no follow-up in the Gospels or Acts of how the city was affected by this. Then, the Jewish authorities are so worried that Jesus' tomb will be found empty, lest people believe that a miracle has occurred (as if the midday darkness and the ripping of the Temple curtain weren't already convincing enough), that they convince Pilate to station guards at the tomb. When the guards are foiled, however, and Jesus' body is found missing, the Jewish authorities claim (28:11-15) that the disciples stole the body. Grave robbery was a capital offense in ancient Judea, and yet, there is no follow-up prosecution of the disciples for this charge, even when they are brought to court on other issues. Furthermore, what happened to Joseph of Arimathea? His tomb was the one that was supposed to remain occupied, and yet, when it is found empty, he is not even questioned on the matter. The Jewish authorities had gone to great lengths to ensure that Jesus' body did not go missing, and yet, when Jesus is claimed to have risen, they do not even undergo an investigation into the circumstances.

I will leave the readers with the replies of Jason Engwer, here and here

An additional final point, which is not so much a criterion of distinction, but rather a reason why even the lack of these differences would still not save the Gospels, is that not even the real historical works that we have from antiquity should be taken at face value

I agree entirely! 

As I explained above, Tacitus, Suetonius, and Dio are not simply copying each other, whereas the Gospels are heavily dependent upon each other for information. This does not entail that the Pagan miracles are true, but it does show that they were not invented by these historians and most likely derive from an earlier common source 

I'm wondering what kind of evidence Ferguson would like to accept miracles? I certainly hope he is consistent and doesn't use independent testimony for other events! 

Friday, November 13, 2020

Moore and the Miraculous

 The argument from miracles is an interest of mine. In fact, right next to the contingency argument, I think it is the strongest argument for theism. That being said, I ran across a debate at the Bible and Beer Consortium with Timothy McGrew & atheist scientist Zach Moore. This topic is McGrew's specialty, he even wrote the SEP essay on the issue. So, it went about as well for Zach as you can expect. I'll make a few comments on his opening statement. 



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueq47CEqNFw&t=426s


A philosophical authority informed me that there was no possible world in which I would win this debate to night

Don't worry, Zach, that isn't just you. Everyone would face the same fate against either of the McGrew's!

1: He brings a wafer that is used at mass, but that in of itself is not the miracle. But that isn't the claimed miracle, it's when the wafer transubstantiates (to use the Roman Catholic view as a foil) that the miracle occurs. 

2: It doesn't matter who "stamps" miracles, & they aren't confined to apparitions. 

The consumption miracle of Nambi Ambar, the anthropomorphism of Dnyaneshwar and the travel of Muhammad

I have not researched the miracle specifically, but when are naturalists going to learn that miracles are only an issue for their naturalism? Other religions and their leaders performing miracles is actually predicted on Biblical theism. As I have said elsewhere, the Bible is full of miracles from non-Christians.

Honi the Circle drawer and the control of nature

1: Our sources on Honi are sketchy at best, unlike what we have for Jesus. 

2: Pharaoh's magicians "control" nature as well. So what?

Sai Baba

Been there, done that: https://thinkchristiantheism.blogspot.com/2020/10/babble-about-baba.html

There are people being raised to life in Christianity 

1: They aren't 'resurrected', rather, they are resuscitated

2: Hallelujah! 

They are all conforming to the same patterns...similar things are happening over and over 

But this is only from the very select few that Moore decided to present. He left out diverse miracles 

bedside visitations: https://epistleofdude.wordpress.com/2018/10/14/bedside-visitations/ and http://rockingwithhawking.blogspot.com/2016/11/mystery-lady.html

How about an overdose that should have resulted in death, but immediately went the opposite direction after prayer: https://anchorednorth.org/the-overdose-that-didnt-kill-me/

All religions are playing with the same currency 

1: Again, how does Moore, a naturalist, deal with miracles?

2: I won't speak for other religions, but nothing about Christianity excludes other religions from performing miracles. 

What standard do we use to decide which miracles we choose?

Inductively and case by case. Next. 

 Too many miracles

This, too, is a problem for Zach. What is the probability that all of these miracles are fraudulent or mistaken? If only one is genuine, his naturalism is toast. Plus, he can assume generic theism all he wants, but miracles of all kinds are expected on Christian theism. 

The vast majority of miracles we would consider to be false

Who would? In fact, I would go the opposite direction. I'd also add Moore gave no reason to think these miracles are false, except for the tendentious assertion that they follow a pattern (which he didn't present the counter evidence for, coincidentally).

Miracles represent a tiny fraction of our experience of the world

1: Plenty of events operate on this level. How many times in your life have you heard of someone getting a royal flush in Las Vegas? 

2: Keener has shown that quite a number of people have experienced, quite a lot more than Zach has opined. Even then, Keener didn't present all the examples!

Hidden miracles

This was ironic in that this was only an argument against naturalism. Thanks, Zach!



Friday, October 30, 2020

Babble About Baba

 I got into a discussion with a Christian playing devils advocate. I've been in the game awhile, these Jesus doubles are anything but new. 


Jackson

He basically just repeating Hume's Argument
Although, in his argument that other religions have miracles, I don't think you should just concede that. I think each miracle has to be looked at on its own merit. Christianity's main miracle is unique because it was extremely unexpected.

Lucas

I pretty much agree. However, I grant it for sake of the argument because it is true it’s not a problem for Christianity. He also didn’t give a specific miracle for me to analyze.

Jackson 

Well, someone can make the argument that they could also be performing miracles in God's name, Which would make Jesus' statement that he is the "only way "apparently false. One could argue That if God raised Jesus from the dead to show his divinity, He could do the same for other people doing miracles.
I think the best argument in this would be Sam Harris's example of Sai Baba, who is a modern Indian gurus. He had millions of followers, and thousands of eyewitnesses to his miracles. He was said to be able to make things appear, To raise the dead, to read minds, to be in two places at once, etc. We could do the "liar, lunatic, Lord" trilemma, Although I don't think many would argue that all of his thousands of followers are all just lying.
Anyway, Harris's point is that the evidence for Sai Baba as far as better than Jesus, and that we literally have thousands of witnesses who are still alive, and these accounts are modern and not written decades later. But, according to Harris, If we were to reject Sai Baba's Miracles based on insufficient evidence, then how much more should we reject Jesus's miracles that are less attested
I think that's a much more robust way of articulating what counter apologist probably would have wanted to say. I guess I'm just a better spokesman at it than he is

Lucas
We have the criteria for false prophets in Deut. 13 & 18. Pace Gathercole (2006), Bauckham (2008), Hengel (2007), Loke (2019) et al, the Biblical case for Jesus being God is good. Swinburne (2010) argued, imo, successfully that Jesus behaved and taught how an all loving and powerful God would (treatment of women, Romans/gentiles, and Samaritans, radical love for the weak and forgiveness).
As for Sai Baba, there’s quite a number of issues.
1: Harris is not an historian. You know how well he treats the Bible, not sure you want to cite him here.
2: The evidence is good that Baba was a fraud. Let’s hear what an actual historian by trade has to say. Commenting on Modern Miracles: Sathya Sai Baba, a Modern-Day Prophet by Erlendur Haraldsson, reviewer Brian Steel makes the following observation:
“One aspect of the parapsychological phenomena that might have rewarded investigation is the increasing tendency in the past three decades, under the intense scrutiny of larger and larger darshan audiences and of camera zooms and videocameras, for SSB’s public materialisations to be largely confined to vibhuti, small items of jewellery, and necklaces, as well as the occasional dubious Shiva lingam (and the aborted lingam session caught on camera by the BBC in their 2004 documentary, Secret Swami). Also, is it not worth consideration that there have been no reports of spectacular phenomena like trances, bilocations, or ‘Lazarus-like resurrections’ in SSB’s final decades of life?” JSPR Volume 79.2 Number 919 April 2015.
This sounds an awful like the typical fraud/charlatan to me. Plus, we’re dealing with 2 entirely different cultural contexts here.

Kyle
Well, I think more to the point of Baba is that people can be fooled by a charlatan and not know that's what he was.

Jackson
And they say the same thing about Jesus. Make it argue that people weren't skeptical and were deceived

Lucas
1: I’m fully aware of the argument he’s making. The movement wouldn’t have even gotten off the ground if Jesus was a fraud. Baba (supposedly) had a lot of followers, but did the movement spread like Christianity? Plus, none of that discounts the evidence I presented. You need to factor that in as well.
2: We have evidence for what kinds of miracles frauds or mere magicians performed in the Greco-Roman world. Jesus doesn’t match that. Consult Keener 2011, 68-75
3: Someone like Sabbatai Zevi or Apollonius of Tyana. They are actually used by historians, not hacks like Harris.

Jackson
to be fair, they could argue that if we had biographies That were only written by followers of Sai Baba, They would try to portray him enough more positive light, especially if they were written decades later

Lucas
Then it would be a meaningless hypothetical vs. real world evidence. I think this also would bring us into a discussion about Gospel reliability, which is beyond the scope of this post.

Wednesday, October 28, 2020

Repetitive Disanalogy

I am going to reply to counter apologist on the resurrection and miracles. See his post here.


He writes "What if I told you that I believed that god raised Jesus from the dead, but that I did not believe that Jesus was the son of god, and denied that belief in his death and resurrection was the path to salvation and eternal life in reconciliation with the one true god, Yahweh.


That would just sound crazy. 


Right?"


In Christian theology, the resurrection is the vindication of Jesus' claims and message. It will be interesting to see how he argues this. 


He writes "The argument for the resurrection comes in many forms, but they all eventually come back to referencing the bible’s stories about Jesus being crucified and resurrected. They all are based on testimonial evidence for a miracle occurring in the past, and unfortunately for Christians"


1: There is a hidden premise in here. Notice he says "they all eventually come back to referencing Bible stories about Jesus being crucified and resurrected'. Well, obviously. Who else is supposed to report that the resurrection happened besides Christians? 


2: Is he not aware that Tacitus and Josephus report the crucifixion of Jesus? 


He writes "testimony can not be used in an evidential way to justify belief in a miracle claim in the world we live in"


There is a lot to say about this little sentence 


1: Assuming event M happened, I would expect someone to claim that it did happen. 


2: I need more background knowledge. What type of person are you? Are you a known liar? Are miracles possible, and if so, do they happen?


3: On naturalism, you should be quite skeptical of miracle claims. However, on Biblical theism, the world is chockfull of miracles. Jesus' ministry is supernatural through and through, you can not separate it from that context. So, if you are a trustworthy source, and you tell me that you have experienced a miracle, I will probably believe you. 


4: In CA's article, there is no mention of the necessary readings on this very topic. To take a few:


Keener, Craig S. Miracles: the Credibility of the New Testament Accounts. Baker Academic, 2011.

Larmer, Robert. Questions of Miracle. McGill-Queen's University Press, 1997.

_____. Dialogues on Miracle. Wipf & Stock Publishers, 2015.

_____. Water into Wine?: an Investigation of the Concept of Miracle. McGill-Queen's University Press, 1996.

Coady, C. A. J. Testimony: a Philosophical Study. Clarendon Press, 2002.

5: Suppose you are sleeping, and your roommate runs into your room, screaming "there is a fire, a huge fire in the kitchen!". I never pull pranks, I am not a jokester, and there is very few things in the kitchen that are flammable. Do you say testimony isn't evidence, or do you take my words seriously? 

Continuing: What if I told you that I woke up in my bed in New Jersey this morning, then had lunch on the moon, but then was home here on earth for dinner?"

1: This is not a miracle claim.

2: Is there good reason to think you were able to go to the moon? Do we have evidence of this happening like we do for miracles? I don't think so. CA's argument fails by disanalogy. 

You probably wouldn’t believe me.

I wouldn't believe you because the evidence isn't on the same playing field. You could say that there is testimonial evidence for alien abduction, but from what I have read, these are almost certainly cases of old hag syndrome.

Continuing: "The difference is the background knowledge in each case. In Star Trek, there are transporters that can span an incredible distance in a second, not to mention galaxy class starships that make such a feat possible. In the real world, only a handful of human beings have undergone the training and incredible journey via rocket spacecraft to make it to the moon, a process that takes a lot longer than a day. 

Now what if my statement was about me doing something physically impossible that no level of technology can overcome? How much more unbelievable is that? Our entire lives we build on this background knowledge of how the world works.


Does my moon lunch scenario become any more plausible if I amend it to say “God transported me to the moon for lunch and then sent me back home to Earth for dinner that same day”?

If I were to try and use a defense in a murder trial that my concealed carry gun levitated out of my holster and fired on my hiking companion in the middle of the woods, would the jury accept or reject that claim? Would you want the jury to accept that claim?"



There is a lot wrong here. 


1: We have a mechanism by which the miraculous can happen. Divine Entities. 


2: You are bound by the laws of nature, God is not. As Craig Keener (2011, p. 131) observes: 


 "“One violates a law only to which one is subject, so the language would not be consistent with the theistic premises…”


3: Christians do not claim that Jesus rose by human powers, rather, they claim God raised him (Acts 2:24; 3:15; 10:40; 13:30; Romans 4:24; 8:11).


4: Jesus is not a mere human, he is God in the flesh.


So, again, CA presents us with a disanalogy.


He says: Even if someone was recently convinced by apologetic arguments to be a “mere theist”, why should the regard the 5 pieces of testimonial evidence we have to the resurrection of Jesus over the other pieces of testimony we have for a wide array of miracle claims for contradictory religions like Hinduism, Mormonism, or Islam?


Miracles are only evidence against CA's naturalism. The Bible is full of miracles from non-believers. Take pharaoh's magicians in the Exodus or Satan himself tempting Christ. Examples abound.

He says "The general fact that there are a lot of non-verifiable, implausible miracle claims would seem to support the idea that a supernatural realm exists. However once we look more closely at the data, the specific details of miracle claims that happen in support of contradictory religions undermine the idea that the supernatural exists, or at the very least that miracles can serve as evidence for the truth of a specific religion."

Again, this does not work against Biblical theism, as per above.

He goes after Mike Licona after this, & I don't have a dog in that fight. I am also not going to do his homework for him. The relevant texts on miracles are cited above.

References

Miracles: The Credibility Of The New Testament Accounts. Baker Academic 2011. 

Friday, September 18, 2020

Ormond Knows God Exists!

 From: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rwge67wY49c&t=438s

"I think I've also noticed through the 
sort of ways that Christians 
do apologetics that it's mostly this 
psychological need to not feel stupid um to feel justified in something which at some sort of intrinsic level they know isn't true and so apologetics exists to be like like it's just this again i think it's mostly psychological the arguments don't matter you know like it can be Thomism to freaking Alvin planting or whatever who cares as long as you're an arty and there's like an us and there's a them and it's just like I will adopt anything that does say or okay 
right and anything they say is wrong and 
it's just like this psychological thing again of like how can i be confident how can i not feel stupid that I believe like crazy things"

Naturalists engage in counter apologetics so that they don't have to feel stupid for holding to such an insane position. Intrinsically, they know naturalism is nonsense. From Tom Jump to Graham Oppy, it doesn't matter, they will adopt any argument, from any naturalist, so that they can feel confident and not stupid for not believing in something they know deep down, is in fact, true.